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dootdoot89
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Name: Gary
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Metro: Raleigh
Interests: Life: God, Jesus, Church, Bible, Ashley (woo!)
Studies: Word, Bioinformatics, statistical/population genetics
Expertise: Being long-winded on paper, cream cheese brownies, laziness, being tall. Also, ending sentences with prepositions... It's something I'm very good at.
Message: message me
AIM:  DootDoot89
Member Since:
2/8/2005
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| Christian music often sucks. Some of the boys at Mars Hill (www.marshillchurch.org) do not. Check out their media library for free Christian music that usually doesn't suck. Much of it is recorded live, so do expect the occasional off note, but 9 out of 10 it beats anything you'll find on the radio, or possibly in your CD library. My personal faves are:
Destructor by E-Pop -- A song about God's judgement. Yet, it's not a fire & brimstone freak you out thing. It's reverent and very well done. Emphasis by E-Pop -- Wake up, O Sleeper! Beautiful Scandalous Night by The Parsons -- Wonderful song about the paradox of the cross -- beautiful yet scandalous. There are also a ton of wonderful versions of songs you're probably familiar with. See especially The BCG (their version of 'There is a Redeemer' is one of the neatest redos I've ever heard of a hymn, also "I Sing the Mighty Power"). E-Pop also has some very good versions of familiar hymns. Their 'Amazing Grace' is possibly the best I've heard. The Parsons also have a lot of good songs, though their singer occasionally tends towards a lounge act sound. They also have a neat thing setup on the site where you can set up a little internet radio and don't have to save anything. You can add or subtract songs from your playlist pretty easily... Go check it out now! | | |
| Note: Cupcakes should not be blue, nor green -- no matter how tasty! Brown (chocolate) or white (vanilla) only please. Minor exceptions can be made for sprinkles. I would even go as far to say that blue cupcakes are unbiblical. Exegesis to follow at a later date... | | |
| Hello All!
I promised a little Hebrews 6 action a while back. It's late in coming, but here we go...
So, to review, this all started back when we talked about assurance. We believe that God saves His people. It is His doing, by grace and through faith. If a person is truly a child of God, then that person perseveres in faith. If a person is not a child of God, then they do not persevere -- their falling away proves that they were never God's child to begin with.
The question then came up "What about Hebrews 6?" Hebrews 6 is a passage that sounds like it's possible for a Christian to fall away. It speaks of someone who tastes the gifts of God and then falls away, to their destruction. Here is the text:
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love that you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
So, "What about Hebrews 6?" How does this passage fit in with our understanding of assurance?
Before we move to the more confusing aspects of the passage, let's look at what's obvious. There is much in this passage that is obvious.
-- The author is writing to a church that is complacent and/or immature (Heb 5:11-14)
-- The purpose of the section is to exhort them to pursue maturity (Heb 6:1-2,11-12)
-- The maturity is from God (Heb 6:3)
-- The author wants them to pursue maturity because he doesn't want them falling away (Heb 6:4-8)
-- It is possible to fall away (Heb 6:6)
-- It is possible to fall away after having, in some way: been enlightened; tasted the heavenly gift; shared the Holy Spirit; tasted the goodness of the word of God; and tasted the powers of the age to come. (Heb 6:4-5)
-- The danger of falling away lies in the resulting unrepentance (Heb 6:4)
There is more that is obvious from the passage, but this will suffice for now. So, going by these half-dozen observations, you can tell that the author is concerned for the souls of his readers. There is a very real danger of them falling away and entering into God's judgement. It is clear that these people have shown some signs that they were Christian. They have in some ways been enlightened and had the Spirit work with/in them, and they've seen God's goodness in His word. And, it is equally clear that these signs do not prove that they will persevere. Though these people had discernable evidence of being Christians, they did not last.
What is unclear from the passage is whether or not these people were Christians. There was evidence of things that looked Christian, but the author does not call them Christians. Nor does he explain what he means by "being enlightened." The word used for "enlightened" is only used about ten times in the New Testament, and is used in a half dozen different ways, so we cannot say with certainty that he means that their souls have been enlightened (aka - this doesn't necessarily mean that they have been regenerated). The author also does not explain what he means by tasting "the heavenly gift," "the goodness of the word of God," or tasting "the powers of the age to come." Nor does he explain what it means "share the Holy Spirit."
At a glance, it's tempting to say that these people are Christian, but the author never gives us that. He just tells us that they've tasted some of the blessings of God and have then fallen away. At the same time, the author never tells us that the people were not Christians.
So, are they Christian or not? How do we resolve it? The answer is that we don't resolve it -- not from this passage at least. That is not the author's point so we don't make that point either. The main point is to encourage us to pursue maturity, and persevere in the faith.
Our question (Are they Christian or not?) is not a textual question since the text doesn't seem to address it. However, that does not mean it is off limits. It now a systematic question. Systematic theology is the organization of biblical doctrines in such a way that you have one overarching coherent philosophy. A systematic approach would be to fit this passage in what we already understand (from other biblical texts) about assurance.
Early we said, "We believe that God saves His people. It is His doing, by grace and through faith. If a person is truly a child of God, then that person perseveres in faith. If a person is not a child of God, then they do not persevere -- their falling away proves that they were never God's child to begin with." If we believe this, then the people who fall away in Hebrews 6 must never have been true Christians. They fell away, were unrepententant, and were cursed. They did not persevere, so that roved that they were never God's children. That is the conclusion from a systematic approach.
That is also my point of view -- it is clear from other passages that God saves His people. The people in Hebrews 6 were not saved, so they must not be God's people. This view also fits in with other parts of Hebrews (Chapters 3 and 4 especially, also the nature of the New Covenant in Chapter 8 and the sufficiency of Christ in Chapters 7, 9, and 10 -- I can talk about this more if someone is interested...).
I plan on doing one more email/post on this passage. Since we've looked at it so much, it would be good to do a bit of application. I'll get to that soon, Lord willing.
One more word. Be very cautious with systematics. Only use systematics to answer a question as a last resort. Using systematics to answer a question assumes that your system (and all its implications) is correct. If your system is not quite right, you will answer get a lot of not quite right answers from your questions. This is actually where a lot of the different denominations and cults come from. Someone gets one or two doctrinal errors, then they start building their systematics around that and before long all their doctrines are a bit off. In the words of one pastor, when you approach a passage (especially the first time) you need to "Flush your systematics and read the text." So, only use systematics as a last resort.
-Gary | | |
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| Author | Date Written | Earliest Copy | Time Span | Number of Copies | Accuracy |
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| Homer | Ca. 850 BC | ----- | ------ | 643 | 95% | | Herodotus | Ca. 450 BC | ca. AD 900 | About 1,350 years | 8 | ----- | | Euripedes | Ca. 440 BC | ca. AD 1100 | About 1,500 years | 9 | Not | | Thucydides | Ca. 420 BC | ca. AD 1100 | About 1,300 years | 8 | enough | | Plato | Ca. 380 BC | ca. AD 900 | About 1,300 years | 7 | copies | | Aristotle | Ca. 350 BC | ca. AD 1100 | About 1,400 years | 5 | to | | Caesar | Ca. 60 BC | ca. AD 900 | About 950 years | 10 | reconstruct | | Catullus | Ca. 50 BC | ca. AD 1500 | About 1,600 years | 3 | the | | Livy | Ca. 10 BC | ----- | ------ | 20 | original | | Tacitus | Ca. AD 100 | ca. AD 1100 | About 1,000 years | 20 | ----- | | New Testament | Ca. AD 60 | ca. AD 130 | About 100 years | About 14,000 | 99.5% |
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| More on Assurance to the bible study: ------------------------------ Hello All! I hope you are all enjoying the break! It's been rather quiet and calm around here without all the students. So, the main reason I am writing is to add a bit more to the whole Assurance discussion. Last time I went over some general thoughts on assurance. Someone responded to those thoughts by asking about Hebrews 6. Specifically, I said that once a person is a truly saved in God's eyes, they stay saved. Those whom the Son sets free are free indeed. However, in Hebrews 6, the author speaks of those who fall away using language that very much sounds like they truly were Christians. Here is the text, Hebrews 6:1-8:
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. This is possibly one of the scariest and most controversial passages in Scripture. It is scary in that it talks of those who are not spiritually mature falling away to eternal condemnation. Every honest Christian that I know of does not believe they are spiritually mature. So, every honest Christian should read this passage and see that eternal condemnation is still a possibility for them. So, it is scary. It is controversial in that there are a plethora of different interpretations of the passage. Not only are there a variety of interpretations, different theological camps will use their different interpretations to individually "prove" their different doctrines. So differing camps use this same text to argue for differing ideas! It's crazy. Interpretations range from reasonable to downright silly. Some say that those who fall away in the passage were never truly Christian. Others say that those who fall away were truly Christian, but that you can lose your salvation. Some who have different ideas about the New Covenant (different than the standard American evangelical/baptist doctrine) claim that they are falling away from the convenant itself. Some say that it's speaking only to Jewish Christians who want to fall back into Judaism. Other say that the passage is entirely hypothetical and the falling away never really occurs in real life. Others say that the author is somehow being sarcastic here and doesn't really mean what he says. There are many many other interpretations. So, in short, Emily, you've asked one of the hardest questions in New Testament scholarship! YAY! So how are we to look at this passage? (dramatic pause) Not to leave you in suspese too long, but my lunch break is now over, so I must get back to work! I'll leave you with that question for now. I'll actually get to answering it either tonight or tomorrow. Read the passage a few times, and read through Heb 1-6 for better context, preferably all of Hebrews if you have time. In the mean time, press on Christian! Grace and Peace be with you all,
-Gary | | |
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